Transcript Translit עברית
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0:20 Rabosei good morning good morning let us begin by thanking first of all Rabbi Richter for giving shiur over Shabbos and Sunday truly truly appreciate it Rabosei so begin by thanking all of our sponsors for this morning's shiur to thank our 0:33 Talmud Torah sponsors for the month of Av Haba Aleinu L'tova Mellen Karen Rom for dedicating all the shiurim and drashos this month for a Refuah Sheleima of Eliezer ben Elisheva Azriel and Iris Miller and M and Dr. 0:45 Leslie Miller for dedicating all the shiurim and drashos this month Le'ilui Nishmas Dr. 0:51 Joseph Miller חיים יוסף בן ראובן Zichrono Livracha friends of Yerachmiel ben Perela for dedicating all the shiurim and drashos this month in the zchus of a Refuah Sheleima and Yassia Malka Cohen for dedicating all the shiurim and drashos this month in memory of Rabbi Dr. 1:07 Nachum Schorr הרב נחום בן רב חיים יהושע הלוי Zichrono Livracha our Daf Yomi sponsors for today Eyal and Sarah Steinberg in the zchus of continued hatzlacha for שושנה חנה בת סושה and for an ultimate Refuah Sheleima Rabosei with that let us begin we are going to pick up today Im Yirtzeh Hashem on פ\"א עמוד א eighty 1:25 one A about nine lines down from the top Amar Rav Hamnuna okay Rabosei so Amar Rav Hamnuna which is exactly two four six eight ten lines down from the top Amar Rav Hamnuna אמר היה רבי שמעון so Rabbi Shimon said the following Rabbi Shimon used to say Oso V'es Beno Noheg B'Kodshim sorry 1:52 אין אותו ואת בנו נוהג בקדשים so Rabbi Shimon used to say the following that the halacha of Oso V'es Beno right again Rabosei which is the topic of our new perek which is the halacha that you cannot go ahead and shecht a mother and its young on 2:06 the same day does not apply to Kodshim אין אותו ואת בנו נוהג בקדשים Mai Taama now what is the logic behind that כיון דאמר רבי שמעון שחיטה שאינה ראויה לא שמה שחיטה so listen to this Rabosei so Rabbi Shimon is of the opinion Rabosei if you remember again we had this earlier in our Chullin 2:23 days as well that שחיטה שאינה ראויה לא שמה שחיטה which means halacha l'maise a shechita that is not fit is not halachically categorized as shechita so once Rabbi Shimon says שחיטה שאינה ראויה לא שמה שחיטה then שחיטת קדשים נמי שחיטה שאינה ראויה היא this is fascinating then sacrificial slaughter by definition is always categorized or is never 2:48 categorized as shechita now why is that so Rabosei let us take a step back so if we go back already to the beginning of our probably Zevachim from the beginning of Zevachim one core principle which avoda makes a korban effective 3:04 what creates korbanic effectiveness Zrika so therefore there is an interesting Rabbi Shimon is espousing an interesting idea that perhaps when you shecht a korban that shechita okay obviously it is called shechita but it is not really halachically bonafide shechita it 3:19 is not really a finalized act since the korban ultimately needs zrika in order to concretize its korbanic identity therefore the shechita is not really a shechita so therefore again there are two principles being espoused over here Rabbi Shimon generally holds 3:37 again that a Shechita She'eina Reuya which again Rabosei the definition of Shechita She'eina Reuya means any shechita which does not render the animal fit for consumption slash usage is not halachically called shechita in other words Rabosei the halacha what is the halachic definition of 3:54 shechita shechita is an act through which the animal becomes permitted right obviously there are a lot of details of shechita but it is the act through which the animal becomes permitted if the shechita does not produce a usable animal then by 4:09 definition it is not called shechita so therefore again Rabbi Shimon is of the opinion שחיטה שאינה ראויה לא שמה שחיטה couple that with the fact couple that with the fact that what that that by definition Kodshim is Shechita She'eina Reuya why because you still require zrika. 4:54 And halacha le-maise shechita she-eina reu'ya is not shechita, and therefore there's no oto ve-et beno by kodshim. 5:02 Fascinating, fascinating. So ma s'var Rava, so Rava raises a kasha on this he says, oto ve-et beno, so Rava goes back and what was saying, remember again we had the mishna and then also the braisa quoted a number of different cases, variation cases of 5:16 oto ve-et beno. So ma s'var Rava, Rava raises a kasha: oto ve-et beno, right say if a mother and a child, so kodshim bachutz, both of them are kodshim, sacrificial animals, and you're shachting both of them outside of the Beis Hamikdash. Rabbi Shimon says, sheni belo sa'aseh. Rabbi Shimon says ultimately again the second animal is 5:35 going to be subject to a lo sa'aseh. 5:37 Now again Rashi says over here: what lo sa'aseh? Rashi says: tishchutei chutz. 5:44 The lo sa'aseh ultimately again of going ahead and shachting a sacrificial animal outside of the Beis Hamikdash. 5:50 Now the gemara says ואף על פי שאינו בכרת, even Rashi, I'm reading Rashi now, even though the second animal will not be subject to kareis, דלא מתקבל בפנים הוא, מכל מקום בלא תעשה הוא. 6:01 So le-maise again the second animal would be subject to the lo sa'aseh of shchutei chutz. Rabbi Shimon says, sheni belo sa'aseh. 6:07 So Rabbi Shimon says, sorry so one more time, oto ve-et beno kodshim bachutz. 6:12 So again rabosai you have a mother and a child, you're shachting both of them outside of the Beis Hamikdash, Rabbi Shimon says, sheni belo sa'aseh. 6:19 Ultimately again the second animal is going to be subject to the prohibition of the lav of shchutei chutz, שהיה רבי שמעון אומר כל הראוי לבוא לאחר זמן הרי הוא בלא תעשה ואין בו כרת. 6:28 Because Rabbi Shimon says any animal ultimately again even if it's not fit to be brought now, but it will be fit to be brought later, ultimately again is subject to a lo sa'aseh and there's no kareis. 6:48 And there's no kareis. 6:49 So therefore rabosai again remember in this case over here, in this case over here, halacha le-maise remember again once you shacht the mother, the offspring is not fit ultimately again to be brought that same day because of oto ve-et beno. 7:01 Technically speaking it would be able to be brought later on, so therefore there's no kareis ultimately again for shchutei chutz, but there will be a lo sa'aseh. Vachachamim omrim כל שאין בו כרת אינו בלא תעשה. 7:15 Chachamim say it doesn't work that way. 7:17 If there's shchutei chutz, then by definition rabosai again shchutei chutz refers to shachting sacrificial animals outside of the Beis Hamikdash, that is normally punishable by kareis. 7:27 So Rabbi Shimon wants to divide between the kareis and the lav. 7:31 That there can be times where you're chayav on the lav but not chayav in kareis. 7:34 The chachamim say the lav and kareis are indistinguishable from one another. 7:39 If you're chayav kareis then you're chayav in the lav, if you're not chayav kareis there's no lav. U-kashya lan, and we asked: kodshim bachutz, sheni belo sa'aseh, kama mikta katel. 7:52 So again rabosai so now the gemara says I don't understand, so you're telling me by kodshim bachutz that according to Rabbi Shimon that second animal is going to be subject to a lo sa'aseh, kama mikta katel, שני מיקבל בפנים הוא וכרת נמי מחייב. 8:06 So rabosai but wait a second I don't understand, if ultimately again the first one is killed, right if you're killing the mother, right then ultimately again remember that's shchutei chutz. 8:14 If that's shchutei chutz then by definition that kind of negates almost the oto ve-et beno, right? 8:21 And therefore the second one should be acceptable, the child should be acceptable as a karban. 8:25 If the child is acceptable as a karban then shachting it outside should bring with it what liability? 8:30 Kareis. So I don't understand why would you just say that it's subject to a lav? Ve-amar Rava, Rava, ve-amrei lah k'dei. 8:36 So Rava said, and others say k'dei. Rabosai it's interesting k'dei sometimes is a person and sometimes k'dei means without attribution, okay. 8:43 The gemara says חסורי מיחסרא והכי קתני. 8:45 This chisurei michsra, there is more to the story. 8:49 There always is. There is more to the story. 8:51 The gemara says ve-hachi katani: kodshim, when it comes right if both animals ultimately again are kodshim, the mother and the son, shneihem bachutz, if ultimately again you're offering them both up outside of the Beis Hamikdash, le-rabbanan, rishon bekarais, according to the rabbanan ultimately again the first animal, 9:10 right the mother is subject to kareis because again remember for shchutei chutz for shachting a sacrificial animal outside of the Beis Hamikdash, שני פסול ופטור מלאו דשחוטי חוץ. 9:21 But the second one, the second one ultimately again is pasul and patur, right now rabosai now this is very interesting, pasul why would it be pasul? 9:31 It's pasul because it can no longer be offered up as a karban. 9:34 Right why can't it be offered up as a karban? 9:36 Because its mother was shachted that day. 9:38 But ultimately again u-patur, u-patur but ultimately again it's not going to be shchutei chutz. 9:45 So because the mother was offered that would preclude the child from being offered, therefore when you subsequently shachted the child outside of the Beis Hamikdash. 9:54 so the child is posul, can't be offered up as a korban because its mother was just slaughtered that day, but ultimately again you will also be pattur for shchutei chutz because the child ultimately is precluded from sacrificial service. 10:07 Okay, rebbe shimon, according to rebbe shimon however, shneihem anushim kareis. 10:13 According to rebbe shimon however, halacha l'maaseh, both of them, mother and son, will be subject to kareis. 10:19 And again rabosei, this has to do, this has to do—fine, we'll come back to it why. 10:23 The gemara says, אחד בחוץ ואחד בפנים. 10:26 Now the gemara just runs through a series of other possibilities in this case. 10:32 אחד בחוץ ואחד בפנים. Again rabosei, so what happens if the mother was offered up outside of the beis hamikdash and the child on the inside? 10:39 This is very reminiscent of the way the mishna was structured as well. 10:43 The rabanan: rishon anush kareis. According to the rabanan, ultimately again the first animal is subject to kareis, shchutei chutz. sheini posul u'pattur. 10:52 The second animal, the child, is posul, cannot be offered up as a korban. 10:57 Why not? Because its mother was just slaughtered that day. 11:00 As a result, if you end up slaughtering it outside of the beis hamikdash, you are pattur. rebbe shimon: sheini kasher. 11:07 According to rebbe shimon however, ultimately even the second animal is totally kasher. 11:11 Good, next case: אחד בפנים ואחד בחוץ. 11:14 If one animal was offered up inside the beis hamikdash, one animal outside of the beis hamikdash. 11:19 So the rabanan, according to the rabanan, rishon kasher u'pattur, sheini posul u'pattur. 11:24 According to the rabanan, the first animal is kasher and pattur, kasher and pattur because it's just the bona fide korban, you offered up a korban inside the beis hamikdash. 11:31 However, once you offered up the mother, so ultimately again the child is precluded from being offered. 11:37 Therefore, if you were to go ahead and offer it out outside of the beis hamikdash, you are pattur, right? 11:42 It's posul, can't be offered up as a korban because the mother was slaughtered and therefore again you are pattur for shchutei chutz. rebbe shimon, according to rebbe shimon, sheini b'lo sa'aseh. 11:50 Ultimately again, the second animal would still be subject ultimately to the lo sa'aseh. 11:56 Okay, now rabosei, v'isadaytach, אין אותו ואת בנו נוהג בקדשים. 12:00 Now again rabosei, in general now remember how did all of this get started? 12:04 So all of this get started because rebbe shimon made a statement. 12:07 rebbe shimon says that oso v'es bno does not apply to sacrificial animals. 12:12 And do you remember again why is that? 12:14 Because rebbe shimon holds that essentially every shchita of a sacrificial animal is not called a real shchita. 12:22 Why not? Because since every korbanic animal still requires zrika in order to concretize its effectiveness, therefore its shchita is not a bona fide shchita. 12:34 And rebbe shimon says, shchita she'eina r'uya, any shchita that's not a quote-unquote like a fit shchita—in other words, any shchita that does not affect comprehensive immediate change in the animal is not called a shchita. 12:47 Therefore, by definition, sacrificial slaughter never creates immediate comprehensive complete change because you still require zrika. 12:55 Therefore, by definition, anytime you anytime anytime you have sacrificial animals, oso v'es bno will not apply. 13:02 That's rebbe shimon's shita. Now the gemara says, v'isadaytach, if you hold אין אותו ואת בנו נוהג בקדשים, rebbe shimon, if you are correct that oso v'es bno does not apply to sacrificial animals, so the gemara says, שני אמאי בלא תעשה וסולו. 13:19 If that's the case that ultimately again oso v'es bno does not apply to sacrificial animals, rabosei, so in all of these cases where you shechted the mother, right, where mother and son are sacrificial animals, and l'maaseh again you shechted the mother first, 13:34 so I don't understand, when you then shecht the child outside of the beis hamikdash, why are we saying that child is only subject to a lo sa'aseh? kareis nami l'chayiv, should be chayiv kareis. 13:44 Right? Why? Because rabosei, if that's the case that there's no oso v'es bno by sacrificial animals, when you shecht the mother effectively you've done nothing, which means that if the child is still a kodshim animal and you shecht that outside of the 13:56 beis hamikdash, halacha l'maaseh there should be kareis. 14:00 הכי קאמר רב המנונא. Rather, Rava said as follows: הכי קאמר רב המנונא. 14:03 This is what rav hamnuna, this is what rav hamnuna said. 14:05 ein malkus, and the gemara says, אין מלקות אותו ואת בנו נוהג בקדשים. 14:12 This is very interesting. 14:14 Rather rabosei, what the gemara means is like this: again rabosei, if you remember again back to the beginning of the perek, one of the interesting things about oso v'es bno—what happens if you do shecht a mother and the child on the same 14:23 day? What's the halacha? 14:24 What happens? Number one, what happens? 14:26 Number one, right, it's kasher. 14:28 This is important to understand. 14:29 Number two, you're in violation of an aveira, right, of a lav, which means you get malkus. 14:34 So this is very important. 14:35 The shchita is effective, the animal is kasher, but you get malkus. 14:39 Now listen to this. 14:40 Rava comes along and says: הכי אמר רב המנונא. אין מלקות אותו ואת בנו נוהג בקדשים. 14:45 Now what we mean to say is like this: it's not that oso v'es bno doesn't apply to kodshim, but rather again you don't get malkus for oso v'es bno by. 14:55 kodshim. Now why is that? 14:58 כיון דכמה דלא זריק דם לא משתרי בשר since at the end of the day, halacha l'maaseh, the right, the meat is right, the animal is not permitted until you do zrika, right? 15:09 The way it works by korbanos is the sacrificial meat is not permitted until you do zrika. 15:13 But look how fascinating this is, בעידנא דקשחיט הוי התראת ספק. 15:18 Wow, fascinating. Rabosai, remember again in general in order to be punished for any biblical infraction what does one require? 15:25 What one requires, one requires hasra'ah, right? 15:28 One requires a warning. 15:30 And again rabosai, now remember again, a warning in order for hasra'ah to be effective what has to happen? 15:35 It has to be, it has to be clear that first of all there has to be proximity, kirva, like we just spoke about before, and it has to be clear that what you're warning the person about is the act that 15:45 they're about to violate. 15:46 So the Gemara says something very interesting, that halacha l'maaseh you can't get malkus, listen to this, get ready for this. 15:53 You can't get malkus on oso v'es bno by kodshim, right? 15:58 So in other words rabosai, let's just play this out. 16:00 I see Reuven, right? 16:01 Reuven's got two animals in front of him, right? 16:03 Two a mother and a child, both sacrificial animals. 16:08 He is about to go ahead and shacht both of them. 16:11 So I want to warn him Reuven, Reuven, don't do that because if you do that in front of two witnesses, if you do that you're in violation of oso v'es bno. 16:18 The Gemara says that hasra'ah doesn't work. 16:20 Why? It's hasra'as safek. Hasra'as safek means that halacha l'maaseh I may or may not be giving him proper warning about a definitive act that he's about to do. 16:30 Now why, why is it hasra'as safek? 16:32 Take a look at Rashi. Rashi's almost right across. 16:34 Rabosai, why? This just goes back to what we said before. 16:41 Because remember in order to be in remember when does the shechita ultimately of a sacrificial animal, when does it become concretized? 16:48 At the moment of zrika, which means even though he's about to do the shechita, the zrika may or may not occur. 16:55 So because I don't know if the zrika is going to occur, therefore by definition it's called hasra'as safek. 17:00 In other words even if Reuven does the shechita right in front of me, that shechita's not effective until a secondary act of zrika occurs. 17:08 That secondary act may or may not occur. 17:12 That renders this entire thing into a case of hasra'as safek. 17:17 Go back to Rashi just a moment. 17:18 דילמא לא אתי לידי זריקה והוי לה שחיטה שאינה ראויה הלכך רבי שמעון איסורא איכא מלקות ליכא. Therefore rabosai it's quite interesting. 17:26 So the Gemara's suggesting over here it's not really as we thought before that oso v'es bno doesn't apply to kodshim. 17:34 Rather again what Rav Hamnuna is saying is that halacha l'maaseh you may never be able to give malkus for oso v'es bno by kodshim. 17:42 Let's read that one more time. 17:43 אלא אמר רבא הכי אמר רב המנונא אין מלקות אותו ואת בנו בקדשים. You can't give malkus for oso v'es bno by kodshim. 17:52 Why not? כיון דכמה דלא זריק דם לא משתרי בשר since as long as you don't do the zrika, the meat does not become permitted. 18:00 Therefore be'idna deka shachit at the moment when Reuven is about to do the shechita of oso v'es bno, havei hasra'as safek. 18:09 It's a doubtful hasra'ah. 18:10 Because rabosai remember again the way hasra'ah has to work is Reuven has to be poised to do an act that is prohibited. 18:17 I have to warn him at that moment beshas maaseh what you're about to do is prohibited and he does it anyway. 18:24 But there has to be a direct correlation or a direct also like I guess word is proximity between the warning and the act. 18:32 By kodshim, here's the problem. 18:34 There's the warning, there's the act of shechita and then what? 18:37 Then what? Then there's a secondary act that has to happen at some point later on called zrika which is not happening right now. 18:44 So because and remember again the only time that the shechita of kodshim becomes meaningful and bona fide is at the time of zrika. 18:52 So therefore there's a secondary act that is going to occur later on that has to occur in order to cause liability, create liability. 18:59 And therefore again that's called hasra'as safek. 19:01 Incredible. והתראת ספק לא שמה התראת. Incredible. And rabosai literally it means doubtful hasra'ah. 19:08 Really what it means is you're giving hasra'ah on an act that may or may not occur sometime later on. 19:16 Ve'azda Rava letaimei. Rava goes according to his reasoning. 19:19 Why? Kide'amar Rava, de'amar Rava. Rava says, היא חולין ובנו שלמים. 19:26 So rabosai halacha l'maaseh again as follows. 19:29 So Rava's like this going back to the cases of oso v'es bno. 19:30 So what happens? Hi chullin, right? 19:32 The mother is chullin uvno shelamim, and the son is shelamim. Rabosai by the way what a profound case. 19:38 היא חולין ובנו שלמים. Rabosai it's very important to understand we don't choose the families we are born into. 19:46 And sometimes people right sometimes realities are that there is a lot of baggage growing up and a lot of baggage with families and a lot of baggage so and sometimes we think that because I have all of that familial baggage 19:57 and because I have all of those difficulties, that creates a glass ceiling as to what I could accomplish. 20:03 Rabosai, you become the person you want to be. 20:06 All of us have baggage. 20:07 There's no such person as, no such thing as a person who doesn't have baggage. 20:10 You could choose to define your life by the baggage or you could choose to transcend it. 20:15 Look at this case: היא חולין ובנה שלמים. 20:19 You could have a case where the mother is Chulin and the son mamash becomes a Shlomim. 20:24 Right, you make of you what you want to be. 20:30 There is no end to the excuses we can make in life for underperformance. 20:34 There are no excuses that we can make in life for why we can't do this and why we can't do that. 20:38 At the end of the day, the buck of your life stops with you. 20:42 And who I want to become, what I want to become, as the Gemara says אין הדבר תלוי אלא בי. 20:48 It doesn't really matter where you come from. 20:51 All that matters ultimately is where you're going. 21:01 היא חולין ובנה שלמים. So what's the halacha? 21:06 שחט חולין ואחר כך שחט שלמים, patur. If you go ahead and you shacht the Chulin and afterwards you shacht the Shlomim, ultimately again, one is going to be patur. 21:17 Now again, Rabosai, the logic on that. 21:20 Now why? But isn't that oso v'es bno? 21:22 It's not. Why isn't it oso v'es bno? 21:24 Because what's the, remember again, it's hasraas safek. 21:27 Why is it hasraas safek? 21:30 Because the child Shlomim, the child Shlomim, shchita is not going to be enough. 21:34 What else do you need by the child Shlomim? 21:36 What do you need? 21:37 Zrika. And because that's only going to occur at a later time, l'maiseh that's hasraas safek. 21:41 So again, the Gemara is just bringing these cases as a proof to Rava. 21:44 שלמים ואחר כך חולין, however, what happens if the mother Shlomim and then Chulin? 21:49 And again Rabosai, it doesn't, remember, one of the other things we've seen by oso v'es bno, remember, we speak about shchting the mother and the son, remember, the order actually doesn't matter. 21:56 Right, right that's, the order doesn't matter. 21:58 שלמים ואחר כך חולין, if halacha l'maiseh again first you shachted the Shlomim and then the Chulin, chayav. 22:06 Ultimately, it's going to be chayav. 22:07 Now again Rabosai, that makes sense. 22:08 Why? Because remember, there's only violation for oso v'es bno when? 22:10 When? The second animal. 22:13 So in this case over here, when the second animal is Chulin, okay, then now we're done. 22:16 Now we're done because l'maiseh again I did shacht the mother. 22:20 I did shacht the mother. 22:20 So Rabosai, if you notice again, this is different than Rebbe Shimon originally, because Rebbe Shimon originally wanted to say there's no oso v'es bno by Kodshim, why? 22:29 Because fascinatingly enough, he wanted to posit that there's no real shchita by Kodshim. 22:34 Because it's not like a bona fide act of shchita by Kodshim because it requires zrika. 22:39 Now we've pivoted a little and no, there is shchita by Kodshim. 22:42 The issue by Kodshim is hasraas safek. 22:45 Okay. So now when you shacht the mother first, let's say you shacht the Shlomim first, okay, then it's done. 22:49 That's done. Now l'maiseh there's certainly oso v'es bno by the child. 22:53 And the Gemara says, and Rava said, היא חולין ובנה עולה. 22:59 In a case of where the mother is Chulin and the child is an Olah, לא מיבעיא שחט חולין ואחר כך שחט עולה דפטור. 23:07 It goes without saying that if you first shacht the Chulin animal and then you shacht the Olah animal that you're patur. Rabosai, now again, the logic behind that as we said before because this is all going according to Rava, that anytime 23:17 you shacht essentially again by Kodshim it's going to be shchitas safek because you still require zrika. Amud bais, Amud bais. 23:23 אלא אפילו שחט עולה ואחר כך שחט חולין פטור. Truth is, but even if you shachted the Olah first and then the Chulin you should still be patur. 23:33 Why? Because Rabosai, now again, this is Rava coming along and saying this. 23:40 Right, why is that? 23:41 The Gemara says patur שחיטה קמייתא לאו שחיטה בת אכילה היא. 23:46 So Rabosai, this is very interesting. 23:48 So Rava wants to suggest that when the mother was the Shlomim and the child was the child was, child was Chulin, that even if you shachted the mother first, you're still patur of oso v'es bno, why? 23:59 Because Rava wants to suggest that the only time you're in violation of oso v'es bno is when it's a shchita that allows you to eat. 24:05 But if halacha l'maiseh the shchita doesn't allow you to eat, then there's no violation. 24:10 Rabosai, so this is very interesting. 24:11 So this is now another wrinkle in this. 24:14 So again Rabosai, we've got a lot going on over here. 24:17 So I just want to point out what you have over here is we have at firsthand Rebbe Shimon coming along and saying there's no oso v'es bno by Kodshim. 24:25 Why? Because halacha l'maiseh this is really riveting, there's no shchita by Kodshim, right? 24:33 That shchitas Kodshim ultimately again is lav shemeh shchita. 24:37 It's not really called shchita. 24:39 Why not? Because since shchita by Kodshim does not allow for usage, it's only subsequent zrika, therefore it's not called a shchita. 24:46 Because it's not called a shchita, there's no oso v'es bno. 24:48 Rava comes along and modifies that. 24:50 Rava says no, no, no, it is shchita. 24:52 The issue over here is there's no liability for is no oto v'et bno by kodshim because it's hasra'at safek. 24:59 Why is it hasra'at safek? 25:01 Because again what are you going to tell Reuven? Reuven, don't shecht, you already shechted the mother, don't shecht the child? 25:04 Well the shechita of the child is not really a bona fide shechita until when? 25:08 Until zerika. And therefore again it's it's ultimately again going to be hasra'at safek and hasra'at safek is lav shemei hasra'at. 25:16 Now Rava introduces a third thing. 25:18 And in this third thing Rava says the truth is there's no oto v'et bno, right? 25:23 אפילו שחט עולה אחר שחט חולין even if he shechted the mother olah first and then the child chullin second, the chullin child second, there's still no oto v'et bno. 25:33 Why? Because the shechita of the mother is לאו שחיטה בת אכילה. 25:40 Because the shechita of the mother does not create an animal that is consumable. 25:44 And apparently Rava says in order for there to be a violation of oto v'et bno you have to do a shechita that renders something fit for consumption. 25:52 So folks which is which is pretty incredible. 25:55 Pretty incredible. So this is now a now a new idea that it's only called oto v'et bno if halacha l'ma'aseh you have the ability to consume it. 26:02 So the Gemara says רבי יעקב אמר רבי יוחנן אכילת מזבח שמה אכילה. 26:07 So Rabbi Yaakov says in the name of Rabbi Yochanan disagrees. 26:07 He says no, no, no, so mizbe'ach consumption is also called consumption. 26:14 In other words, an animal does not actually have to be fit for human consumption as long as it's fit for some type of consumption, even mizbe'ach consumption, we're good to go. 26:24 Mai tama? What's the reason for this? 26:25 De'amar kra because the pasuk said ואם האכל יאכל מבשר זבח שלמיו. 26:34 Ultimately again if you will go ahead and eat from the meat of your korbanos. 26:38 And again folks if you notice in the pasuk it's he'achel (sorry) he'achel ye'achel. 26:44 Two acts of consumption. 26:46 בשתי אכילות הכתוב מדבר. Torah is speaking about two acts of consumption. 26:51 אחד אכילת אדם ואחד אכילת מזבח. One is talking about human consumption and one is talking about mizbe'ach consumption. 26:59 Both are considered to be bona fide forms of consumption and therefore halacha l'ma'aseh one would be in violation of oto v'et bno for those two acts of consumption. 27:07 Incredible. So folks we're not going to do the halacha l'ma'aseh yet on this because we're not totally finished but just understand really the open ended items. 27:14 Really what it all comes down to is: is there oto v'et bno by sacrificial animals? 27:19 That that's really kind of what all of this all of this stems from. 27:23 If the answer is yes, good. 27:25 If the answer is no, we have to find out why that is. 27:28 Is there hasra'at safek? Is it that there's not a bona fide shechita? 27:33 Is it that oto v'et bno has to yield something that is fit for consumption? 27:37 So those are all of our outstanding issues over here but it all really consolidates itself in one core question which is: does oto v'et bno apply to sacrificial animals or not? 27:51 So keep keep that question keep that question in your mind you're going to see why we're not finished yet with the sugya. 27:56 Folks look at the next mishna. 27:57 Very exciting. Very exciting. 27:59 Listen to this. Next. 28:03 Hashochet v'nimtza tereifa. Okay so folks so again still on the topic of oto v'et bno. 28:08 So what happens? A person shechts an animal and it turns out that the animal is a tereifa. 28:13 Right? Which means folks that what? 28:15 The shechita did not create a consumable an animal fit for consumption. 28:19 Okay? Or ashochet la'avoda zara. Or one shechted the mother folks these are all oto v'et bno cases right? 28:25 So I shecht the mother, the mother's a tereifa. 28:27 Or ashochet la'avoda zara. Or one goes ahead and shechts an animal for avoda zara. 28:33 Okay? I mean not okay but you understand. 28:36 Gemara says or ashochet parat chatat. 28:39 Or listen to this: I shechted a parah adumah. Shechted a parah adumah. 28:43 Or shor haniskal. Shor haniskal folks shor haniskal is a is a is a an ox that killed someone. 28:52 Right? And now again folks shor haniskal is the the ox has been adjudicated and has been sentenced to be stoned. 28:58 Right? So again folks it was going to be put to death. 29:01 Or egla arufa. Egla arufa remember again is you find chas v'shalom a dead body between two cities, we don't know who killed the person, the measure the closest city, the elders come out, bring out a calf to decapitate the calf on a dry riverbed. 29:14 So folks now what happened in all the what's the common denominator over here? 29:17 In all of these cases right? 29:19 This this is the mother. 29:21 Right? So the mother is the mother is the tereifa. 29:23 The mother is the animal offered up for avoda zara. 29:26 The mother is the parah adumah. 29:28 The mother is the shor haniskal. 29:31 The mother is the egla arufa. 29:33 Right? So in all of these cases you have the mother animal. 29:36 Now folks now what happened over here? 29:38 Now you go ahead and you shecht the offspring, you shecht the child of that mother on the same day. 29:45 So what's the shaila? 29:46 Am I in violation of oto v'et bno? 29:49 So what's the halacha? 29:50 Rabbi Shimon pattur. Rabbi Shimon says you're pattur. 29:53 Now why you're pattur? Rashi says over here... 29:55 Look at Rashi. Rabbi Shimon poter: shechita she'eina re'uya. Now again rabosai, Rabbi Shimon says in all of these cases, the shechita of the mother is not a proper shechita. 30:05 Now what does that, now what does that mean? 30:07 It's not a, it's not what we'll call a halakhically recognized shechita. 30:12 Now rabosai, let's go through these cases just a moment. 30:14 Treifa, the shechita didn't yield an animal that you could eat, right? 30:19 Now granted, rabosai, when you shecht a treifa, what do you get? 30:22 Right? How does it help you? 30:25 Right? No nevela, right? 30:27 So again, there is, so let's point out, there's definitely a benefit, but again, it's not a shechita that creates, that creates something you could eat, right? 30:34 Avoda zara, what when you shecht an avoda zara, what does that do for you? 30:37 What does that do for you? 30:38 Nothing. The animal is a hundred percent prohibited, right? 30:40 Para aduma. Para aduma is its own thing, right? 30:43 It's, it's essentially, even though again remember rabosai, interestingly enough, what's the kedusha of para aduma? Kedusha of para aduma? Bedek Habayis, right? 30:53 Remember again, it's not, interestingly enough, it's not really a korban, it's more Bedek Habayis. 30:57 Okay, fine. Shor haniskal, what happens if, rabosai, if you have a shor that's condemned to death and you go and you shecht it, what does that do? 31:04 Nothing, right? It's still assur behana'ah, you can't do anything with it. 31:07 And egla arufa. So interestingly enough, Rabbi Shimon will say in all of these cases, when you shecht the mother, that is not... 31:13 all right rabosai, we have to be careful with our words. 31:15 It's a halakhic shechita, but remember, Rabbi Shimon defines a shechita as an act which permits something to you. 31:22 You shecht an animal, it permits it to you. 31:25 If the shechita does not permit something to you, bless you, then by definition it's not shechita. 31:31 Well, if it's not shechita, then what? 31:33 Then what? There's no prohibition of oto ve'et beno because what's the lav of shechita? Oto ve'et beno, what's the rest of the pasuk? 31:42 לא תשחטו ביום אחד. The prohibition is to shecht the mother and the child. 31:48 But if you did something to the mother that essentially is not recognized as halakhic shechita, then by definition there's no prohibition to go ahead and shecht the child. 31:58 Fascinating. On the other hand, chachamim mechayvim. 32:01 The chachamim say no, you absolutely are mechayvim in this. 32:04 Now again rabosai, we'll see the nature of the machlokes. 32:06 The chachamim say that you're chayav. 32:07 Okay, good. Really a riveting machlokes. 32:10 Next, hashochet venisnavla beyado. Rabosai, so now continuing on this theme, let's say I'm shechting the mother. 32:16 I botch the shechita. 32:18 I botch the shechita. 32:19 Whatever, whatever it is that I did. 32:20 So I'm shechting and it turns out that I made the mother into a nevela. 32:23 Or or the gemara says, or hanocher veham'aker. 32:26 Again rabosai, or I go ahead and... 32:29 now nocher means stabbing, me'aker means I dislodge. 32:34 Point over here is in all of these cases, I botched the shechita. 32:37 So I'm doing a regular shechita, I mess it up. 32:39 I got distracted, right? 32:40 Whatever happened, I messed up the shechita. 32:43 Now again rabosai, so now, so now what happens? 32:46 So the mother, the mother therefore is a nevela. 32:48 Now I go ahead and I shecht the child. 32:51 What's the halacha? Patur. Everyone, rabosai, interestingly enough, everyone agrees in this case פטור משום אותו ואת בנו. 32:57 Everyone agrees. Now why does everyone agree? 32:59 Why does everyone agree? 33:00 Right? Because lemaise this is a clear case where I did not shecht the mother. 33:04 Right? I botched the shechita. 33:05 So again, rabosai, what's fascinating about this mishna is, it sounds like from the mishna, look at Rashi for just a moment. 33:10 Hanocher veham'aker: simanim nidchu patur ואפילו רבנן דהא ליכא שחיטה כלל ולא דמיא דשחיטה דלעיל כלל דהתם שחיטה מעלייתא איכא ודבר אחר גרם לו לפסול. So rabosai, this is, this is really riveting. 33:25 It turns out what the mishna is saying is like this. 33:27 Everyone agrees that if you have no shechita, rabosai, let's say you went ahead, right, you went ahead and you went over to the mother and you just like clocked it over the head and killed it like that and then you shecht 33:36 the offspring, everyone will agree that you're not in violation of oto ve'et beno, because everyone agrees in order to be in violation of oto ve'et beno, you require a bona fide shechita, right? 33:46 And that's why again if I'm shechting the mother and I botch the shechita and then I go ahead and I shecht the child, everyone agrees that you're not in violation, you're fine. 33:55 Where's the machlokes? The machlokes is, what happens when I did a bona fide act of shechita, but there's something else, there's something else that quote-unquote gets in the way that prevents me from consuming the mother, right? 34:10 For example, right, for example, mother is a treifa, avoda zara, right, egla arufa, so in all of these cases was there a bona fide act of shechita? 34:19 Absolutely. But there's something else that's preventing the shechita ultimately again from, from allowing me to consume the animal. 34:26 So in that case Rabbi Shimon will say that's not called shechita, that's not called shechita, any shechita which does not result in consumability ultimately is not shechita. 34:36 If it's not shechita, there's no problem to shecht the offspring. 34:39 Rabanan will say no, that is an act of shechita, in other words shechita is a maisa, it's an act, if you did the maisa, ultimately there's a chalos shem shechita, there's an act of shechita and therefore again that, that prevents you ultimately 34:53 again from shechting the offspring. 34:54 So fundamentally so this is the machlokes over here. 34:57 Let's analyze. So exciting. 34:58 Says the Gemara. So let's analyze. 35:00 Amar Reish Lakish. Reish Lakish says לא שנו אלא ששחט ראשון, sorry לא שנו אלא ששחט ראשון לעבודה זרה ושני לשולחנו. 35:08 So Reish Lakish says, by the way, what's the case of the Mishna? 35:10 The case of the Mishna is only where the first animal was shechted for avoda zara. 35:14 Right? Then right, you shechted the mother for avoda zara and then you shechted the child leshulchano. Leshulchano means for your own purposes. 35:23 That's when ultimately, right, however, aval, ראשון לשולחנו ושני לעבודה זרה, pattur. 35:29 But rabosai, it's very interesting. 35:31 So again rabosai, where is the machlokes, Rabbanan and Rabbi Shimon? 35:34 Right, if you shecht the second animal, right, it's when you shechted the mother for avoda zara and ultimately again you shechted the child for your own purposes. 35:42 So Rabbi Shimon will say pattur from oso ve'es b'no because it's not shechita, and the Chachamim will say you're chayiv because it is shechita. 35:49 However, rabosai, watch this. 35:50 Aval, but everyone agrees, watch this. 35:52 If you shechted, let's say, the mother for consumption purposes and then you shechted the child for avoda zara, everyone agrees that you're pattur from oso ve'es b'no. 36:03 Why? Why? Why? Because you're chayiv misa. 36:06 Right? Why are you chayiv misa, rabosai? 36:08 Why? For avoda zara. And remember again, when you have, when you do one act and that one act generates two punishments and one is more severe than the second, what's the halacha? 36:19 We say קים ליה בדרבה מיניה, which literally means judge him in accordance with the stricter penalty. 36:26 So therefore again rabosai, if I go ahead and I shechted the mother let's say for regular consumption, then I shechted the child for avoda zara, essentially the halacha says don't worry about oso ve'es b'no because I'm chayiv misa. 36:37 Right, lemaisa again. So therefore again, the liability to death for avoda zara really sets aside any obligation or any liability ultimately again for oso ve'es b'no. Amar Rabbi Yochanan, so this is great. 36:48 Rabbi Yochanan says to Reish Lakish, זו אפילו תינוקות של בית רבן יודעים אותה. 36:55 Rabosai, now this is the pinnacle of like Talmudic shtach. 36:58 Right? Right? Like that's the best you got? 37:00 Like my kid brought that home in their parsha sheets. 37:03 Like that's like every, right, everybody knows that. 37:06 Everybody knows that. Ella, listen to this. 37:08 Ella pe'amim, Rabbi Yochanan says I'm going to tell you the chiddush. 37:10 אלא פעמים שאפילו שחט ראשון לשולחנו ושני לעבודה זרה חייב. I'll tell you even better. 37:17 There are times where even if you shechted the first one for let's say regular consumption purposes and you shechted the second for avoda zara, there's still a situation where you could be chayiv for oso ve'es b'no. 37:29 Now, rabosai, that's very intriguing. 37:30 How could I be chayiv for oso ve'es b'no? 37:32 Wouldn't we say קים ליה בדרבה מיניה? כגון דאסרו ביה משום אותו ואת בנו ולא אסרו ביה משום עבודה זרה. 37:42 Wow! Listen to this case, rabosai. 37:43 This is great. So imagine the following scenario. 37:45 I go over to Reuven, I'll stop using myself as an example. 37:47 I go over to Reuven. Reuven shechts, right, Reuven shechted the mother for chullin. 37:51 No problem. Now he's about to shecht the son. 37:54 And he says I'm going to shecht this offspring for avoda zara. 37:58 I bring over two witnesses and I say, Reuven, don't shecht the son because if you do that you're in violation of oso ve'es b'no. 38:05 Now interestingly enough, I gave him hasra'ah for oso ve'es b'no. 38:09 I didn't give him hasra'ah for what? 38:11 For avoda zara. Now he's saying hineni muchan umezuman to shecht this son for avoda zara. 38:17 But okay, but remember if I don't give him hasra'ah for it, there's no liability for it. 38:21 So rabosai, in this case, interestingly enough, he could be in violation for oso ve'es b'no even though he shechted it for avoda zara. 38:29 Because since the hasra'ah, the warning, was only for oso ve'es b'no and was not for avoda zara, he will not have liability for avoda zara. 39:22 Incredible! Incredible! The Gemara says, good, כגון דאסרו ביה משום אותו ואת בנו ולא אסרו ביה משום עבודה זרה. רבי שמעון בן לקיש אמר, Reish Lakish says, כיון דכי אסרו ביה פטור כי לא אסרו ביה נמי פטור. 39:44 Okay, so rabosai, this is pretty wild. 39:46 Reish Lakish now drops this line which we're going to have to go ahead and analyze a bit more. 39:52 Reish Lakish says since if we would have he would have been Reuven hasra'ah ultimately again for avodah zarah he would have been he would have been patur meaning patur for oso v'ezbeno. 40:04 Therefore even if we don't give him hasra'ah it's as if we did give him hasra'ah and he's going to be patur for oso v'ezbeno. 40:12 Now again Reish Lakish is not suggesting that when there's no hasra'ah he could be chayav for avodah zarah. 40:17 That's not what he's suggesting. 40:19 But he is suggesting that halacha l'maiseh there would still be exemption for oso v'ezbeno when Reuven shechts that second animal for the sake of avodah zarah. 40:27 Now why that is we'll have to see. 40:30 What exactly that means or is why, why is it that if he didn't get hasra'ah he would be patur, that we'll have to see in just a little bit. 40:36 Good, so let's analyze rabossai. 40:38 So the Gemara says v'azda l'taimayu. 40:40 And in reality, and in reality both Rabbi Yochanan and Reish Lakish ultimately go according to their previously espoused opinions. 40:47 דכי אתא רב דימי אמר חייבי מיתות שוגגין וחייבי מלקות שוגגין ודבר אחר. See, rabossai, it's interesting case over here. 40:54 So if you look at Rashi, Rashi says over here chayvei misos. 40:58 That's right before the lines get wide. 41:00 חייבי מיתות שוגגין או חייבי מלקות שוגגין ודבר אחר. Atarvai kai. חייבי מיתות שוגגין ודבר אחר עבר עבירה בלא התראה דהיינו שוגג ויש בה דין מיתה אם היו מתרין בו ויש בה עוד חיוב דבר אחר כגון מלקות shvasak rabossai the Gemara is giving a little bit of a non-descript case over here. 41:20 So Reuven, Reuven is in violation of something that carries with it a hiyuv misah, a hiyuv misah and davar acher, right, and another liability, right, and Reuven goes ahead and violates this. 41:33 Rabossai, so this is the classic case of קים ליה בדרבה מיניה. 41:36 Reuven does something where halacha l'maiseh again there's dual liability, hiyuv misah and some other liability as well. 41:44 Rabbi Yochanan, Rabbi Yochanan says chayav. 41:46 Rabbi Yochanan ultimately again says that you will be chayav. 41:50 You will be chayav. 41:52 ריש לקיש אמר פטור. And Reish Lakish ultimately again we'll say that you're patur. 41:56 Take a look at Rashi for just a moment. 41:58 Rabbi Yochanan amar chayav. Rabossai, third wide line in Rashi. 42:01 באותו דבר אחר שאם המיתה הלא אינו נהרג וכן חייבי מלקות שוגגין ודבר אחר שעבר עבירה שיש בה מלקות וממון כגון אכל מעשר שיש לחבירו בגבולין או נבילה וטריפה של חבירו ולא התרו בו למלקות. See, rabossai, so halacha l'maiseh Rabbi Yochanan is of the opinion that when you are, that when you violate a lav or when you violate an aveira and that aveira ultimately for example carries with it both a hiyuv, both the hiyuv malkos 42:28 let's say misah, Rabbi Yochanan will say that you will get both of those liabilities, both the hiyuv malkos as well as ultimately again as well as misah. Reish Lakish says patur. Reish Lakish says ultimately again you're patur. 42:40 Now patur means once there's going to be a hiyuv misah you're not going to be chayav for anything else. 42:46 So the Gemara says what's the logic? 42:49 Rabbi Yochanan amar chayav. Rabossai, you know what we're going to do we'll stop over here for today. 42:52 We're going to pick up im yirtzeh Hashem with this machlokes Rabbi Yochanan and Reish Lakish, the more in depth machlokes im yirtzeh Hashem tomorrow. 42:58 And im yirtzeh Hashem rabossai then just so you understand this is a yesodistik machlokes about the definition of shechitah, the definition for oso v'ezbeno and then im yirtzeh Hashem we'll see this will actually loop back to Kodashim as well. 43:11 Resolution tomorrow. Shkoiach everyone. 43:13 Everyone have a great day everyone. 43:23 Good morning. Good luck.
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